john: alright! this is john kohler with okraw.com.today we have another exciting episode for you. i got a friend here, robert cheeke onand he's known as a vegan bodybuilder, look at this guys, man, he's rocked, i mean youcan compare mine to his. alright, well he's like at least twice my size. but i don't workout, he works out like all the time, but anyways so we're going to talk about very importantstuff here that's important to both of us. it's protein!robert cheeke: protein! john: you know, animal protein, plant protein,yes there's a difference but we both believe that you can get too much protein on yourdiet and in this video robert's going to explain three reasons why too much plant protein isnot good. robert, before we get into talking
about plant protein let's talk about someof the problems with animal protein especially for people that are into bodybuilding andgaining muscle and all this kind stuff, like why is too much protein from animals not good?what does the research say? robert cheeke: great, well we know that moreis not better, a lot of protein, especially animal protein can have numerous adverse effectson health from kidney problems to liver problems to damage of endothelial cells to plaque buildupin arteries to obviously heart problems and restriction of blood flow, organ failure insome cases, kidney stones, we've seen that it can increase risk of cancer, we know it'sfrom the china study, high levels of animal protein can create cancer to grow and turnon cancer growth and we can see this in controlled
studies where you can decrease animal proteinconsumption and slow down that growth. so it also just has a lot of baggage. proteinhas a lot of baggage with it, it comes from animal foods that are typical thousands ofcalories per pound, i think meat's a couple thousand calories per pound, it leads to alot of excess weight gain, a lot of processed food consumption, a lot of feeling tired andlethargic and heavy and full and not really energized. of course it has all kinds of environmentalimplications as well. but just speaking just purely from a health standpoint, it has abilityto negatively impact organs, arteries, energy levels, body weight, bone density, overallhealth and for the most part should be avoided at all costs.john: wow, yeah but i mean a lot of bodybuilders,
robert, like use a lot of protein and i knowyou as a vegan bodybuilder you don't do animal protein but i know back in the day you dida lot of like plant based proteins. did those extra proteins really help you to build someof that muscle you got there? like all your isolated soy or whatever kind of proteinsyou had? robert cheeke: for a while i thought it did.i've been a vegan since 1995, bodybuilding in some capacity on and off since about 2000and at the time, yeah i was eating, drinking i guess, 6 protein drinks a day, 4 proteindrinks a day, sometimes 4 or 5 protein bars a day. i thought it was working, i got prettystrong but i was also very bloated, i felt very heavy, very tired. i was up to 195 pounds,when i became vegan i was only 120 pounds,
a 15 year old kid. so i thought it workedpretty well. but in 2012 when inspired by forks over knivesand doctor t. colin campbell's plant based nutrition course through the center of nutritionstudies and through just my own reasons, being inspired by campbell, [00:03:28] (unclear)and others, i decided to stop all sport supplementation. the only supplement these days is vitaminb12 that i've used since 2012 and i've actually been up to 205 pounds, bigger than i everwas and i retired from bodybuilding 6 years ago, as a competitive bodybuilder.so i thought protein was doing me a huge favor, building muscle i was getting strong, 195pounds, great and then years after no protein powder consumption, no sport supplementationover 200 pounds and strong than i've ever
been. so from just the performance aspecti'm not sure that those isolated proteins, those powders, those supplements were reallythat beneficial. john: wow, so you're actually stronger noweating a whole foods, plant based diet than you were on those powders and why do you thinkthat is? robert cheeke: well, i think at the end ofthe day we have to look at the net gain return on investment nutritionally. so here i am,i mean we could even just do the math, count the numbers how many calories am i consumingfrom all these protein drinks and how many calories am i depriving myself from eatinghealthier foods? what if i ate complex carbohydrates, wholeplant foods- fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains,
seeds, legumes, in a balanced capacity aimingfor the foods that provide the highest net gain nutrition, the highest amount in my ownestimation or what i learned from books that will provide the highest amount of antioxidants,vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, nitrate oxide, to keep the blood flowing smooth whichis great for exercise and lifting weights. that's what i think i should have been focusingon back them. john: you were missing?robert cheeke: i think i was missing because i was focusing on...john: a lot of protein. robert cheeke: tofu hot dogs, and that's thething, and i want to be clear, i wasn't just using a lot of supplement, i was focused onhigh protein foods.
john: such as?robert cheeke: where now, oh i was eating tofu everything, soy everything, i mean iate 18 tofu hot dogs in a day one time. that's a lot.john: that's a lot. robert cheeke: so i was eating just packaged,processed isolated deli slices, hot dogs, tofu, tempeh, saytan, all of that stuff, asmuch as i could. i thought more was better. there wasn't room for a lot of fruits or vegetables.in fact, in main stream bodybuilding they encourage you to not eat fruit, fruit willmake you fat, don't eat fruit. i was like that's my favorite food, i have to go withoutit as a bodybuilder. so that's what i did and these days, and i think this is important,these days i don't even seek out tofu, tempeh,
these types of foods. not only do i avoidall sports supplements, protein powders and the like, these days i also do even seek outhigh protein foods, not at all. i just, i'm fine.john: just eat stuff. robert cheeke: yeah, i love all types of fruitsand i eat potatoes and yams and beans and lentils and rice and quinoa and leafy greensand exotic fruits and common fruits, berries, mango, bananas, whatever. that's what i eatwithout any kind of emphasis and i've been bigger and stronger.john: bigger and stronger. robert cheeke: yeah, bigger and stronger thani've ever been, putting up as high as 330 pounds on decline barbell bench press, freeweight exercises, pressing 120 pound dumbbells
in each hand.john: wow, that's impressive. robert cheeke: i'm not that big of a guy,i'm about 190 pounds as we're sitting here today, i've been as high as 205 a couple monthsago. so, but i've been able to build all that, maintain all that, build strength all justwith real food. john: wow, that's awesome. so next i wantto talk about the three reasons why too much plant protein, because you guys know animalproteins not good, but as i was amazed to discover that even plant protein could bebad. so robert why are three reasons why it's too much plant protein not good for us.robert cheeke: yeah, so what i believe is that since dr. michael greger from nutritionfacts.organd how not to die and many other experts
too suggest that we eat even as vegetarians,we get 2 to 6 times more protein than we need. so right off the bat here is a nutrient thateverybody's focused on, everyone's focused on protein, something that we get an exorbitantamount of. that's already a kind of a cause for alarm.so why do we need to eat more of something that everyone eats too much of and most peoplethat we know, just statistically most people we know are either overweight or have somekind of diet related health issues that often times protein consumption, large protein consumptionis a culprit. so right off the bat most of us eat too much of it, so why would we wantto add a whole lot more. john: so that's reason one.robert cheeke: yeah, reason number one.
john: we already get too much.robert cheeke: yeah, we already get too much and i don't think more is better. to supportthat i kind of, number two i guess here is if more were better than a bunch of proteinwould be great for our skin, our organs our energy levels, all these things. turns outthat's not the case. excess protein can have adverse effects on, as i mentioned earlier,kidney's, liver, other organs, bone density, energy levels of course, it sucks a lot ofenergy from us to have to have to digest and process heavy protein rich foods where a lotof lighter foods, plant based foods are so much easier to digest and have a higher returnon investment as far as energy. so as i was saying if more were better thanthat would be a great thing, just pile on
the protein, take on more and more and more,but that's not the case and so that's another alarming reason to avoid protein, even plantprotein because imagine consuming exorbitant of plant protein and how that has to be digested,even if it doesn't create the artery build up, the plaque buildup that animal proteindoes, which i don't know if it does. it still sucks a lot of energy from us and replacesthe calories that should be coming from some other foods, so that is another reason tostay away from large amounts of plant protein, including supplementation and isolated nutrients.john:so that'd be number three, reason number three if you're eating all this extra proteinyou're not able to eat like other high carbohydrate foods to get your calories from right?robert cheeke: exactly, and that's one of
the things i think is most compelling andbecause when we focus on high protein foods, we miss out on high complex carbohydrate foodsthat contain all the micronutrients, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, fiber, water, nitriteoxide, all of that stuff that's really, really great for us and as we know protein is theleast efficient source of energy. so people say oh i'm, became vegan or vegetarian,i'm tired i didn't, need more protein. that's not going to give you energy, it might makeyou feel heavy and full and some people miss that from eating really heavy animal basedfoods, but you can get that same feeling from eating nutrient dense, calorie dense satiatingplant foods too. so that very important number three compelling reason is that when we eata high protein diet we just simply miss out
on better nutrition that's found elsewhereand that i think can not be overstated, understated or overlooked because it does play such abig role. john: right, i think the same thing abouthigh fat foods for example, if you're eating a lot of high fat foods and a lot of yourcalories come from fat instead of high healthy carbohydrate foods. same thing, you can beeating a lot of high carbohydrate foods like white bread, white potatoes and all this stuffand you're missing the boat in my opinion because now a lot of your calories are comingfrom high carbohydrate foods but they're not high nutrient density foods.that's why i think robert is performing better now, lifting more because our bodies are aholistic system, we just don't need protein,
we need protein and carbohydrates and fatsand waters and antioxidants and phytochemicals and vitamins and trace minerals and all theseare in nature's proportions and we eat nature's whole foods, of course the fruits and thevegetables are the best at those. so robert, what some like three top foodsthat you like to eat that are whole foods that are a good balance food, rich in protein,carbohydrates, nutrients, phytochemicals, vitamins and minerals?robert cheeke: well the funny thing is i don't even think about foods like that anymore,i don't think about like what's a good high protein plant food because i'm not even focusedon it. i would say something like walnuts, great at omega 3 essential fats, great inprotein, it's calorically dense, but i don't
even think that way.but off the top of my head i would say beans and other legumes seem to be a great examplebecause they are filling, they're about 500 calories per pound on average, they're verysatiating, they have a good amount of carbohydrates in them, a good amount of protein in them,a good amount of fiber in them, they're a whole food. so foods, legumes i think area pretty good idea for that. as i mentioned walnuts are fantastic. i likevegetables like yams and potatoes and sweet potatoes, you know usually the darker thecolor the better i think, as far as the best nutrition, but those again, they're very fillingfoods, very heavy, very satiating and could be the great centerpiece of a meal and withouthaving to emphasis tofu or something that's
got to be added to it. i think the potatoand have some salad with it, have some vegetables with it, is a great way to go. so, i meanbroccoli probably fits into that category really well too. that's the thing, there'sso many foods, why point out just a few, i think eating a balanced diet, eating the foodsthat you like that are whole plant based foods is a good way to go.john: what about fruits? like fruits for like bodybuilding. think that's a really good ideaor not so good of an idea. robert cheeke: yeah, well when i first gotinto this 15 years ago as a vegan bodybuilder they said no fruit, don't eat fruit but that'smy favorite thing to eat period is fruit. so i eat a lot of bananas, mangos, blueberries,which i actually find to be really filling,
blueberries can be really filling have a bigmeal of blueberries, i like raspberries, melons, citrus fruits. i mean really, i eat a lot.this is probably compared to you, but one time i counted i had 19 different fruits athome. it was just really cool, persimmon, guava, more exotic stuff than just apples,oranges and bananas. so i think that is a really good way to go because you get greatcalories with water, fiber, vitamins, minerals, just great nutrition and i think fruits canbe a great bodybuilding food, avocado, coconut, bananas, really popular bodybuilding foods.john: awesome, awesome. so there you go, you guys have it why too much protein, whetherit's animal or plant protein is not good and that you guys should focus on a whole plantbased food diet, rich in fruits and vegetables
also includes some of those beans and legumeslike robert was saying. so robert, do you have any last comments that you'd like toshare with my audience today about this topic? robert cheeke: yeah, well one of the thingsi think is really important too is when we project this idea that vegans and vegetariansneed lots of protein, number one it's completely inaccurate as we know from doctor michaelgreger who's one of the best in the business that even vegetarians get up to 6 times moreprotein than we need. our nutritional requirement is so low, what 5 to 10 percent of our calories.so when we present this idea to people, to our friends, our family, athletes, to otherpeople, that i think this gives a bad impression of, it makes a plant based diet which is asgood as it gets really makes it look deficient,
oh you must need lots of extra protein togo with that. imagine a mainstream audience watching a majorsporting event and one of the star athletes is projected to be a vegan person, peoplego crazy. oh this guy is not going to have enough energy, he's not going to be as strong,he's not going to be as big or as fast and this is the idea that gets filled into millionsof television homes then people are worried then about their children becoming vegetarianor vegan, they'll be deficient, they'll be weak and i'm someone who went from 120 poundsto 205 pounds, of course over many years, but clearly it wasn't an issue. when i wasmy biggest and my best i know had focus on protein, i didn't care about it, i didn'tthink about it, i didn't stress about it,
i didn't prioritize it, it just, it came fromeating enough calories of real food. john: yeah, i mean, that's important to metoo, if we eat enough food we're going to get enough protein and you shouldn't evenworry about it and don't try to get excess protein, like i think vegan protein powdersare a big shame, what are your thoughts on vegan protein powders man?robert cheeke: yeah, at the end of the day protein powders started over in the 60's or70's as by product of the dairy industry, it turned out to be a very great way to makemoney and so there we had it, whey protein, protein casing, all kinds of muscle milk typeproducts and that obviously led to the boom of plant based supplements as well and againi still think it gives the wrong idea especially
even labeled vegan protein, it means oh okaya vegan person must be deficient. john: right.robert cheeke: that's the impression that it gives and i think that can be problematic,misleading and not really accurate. john: i totally agree, so yeah. we get enoughprotein and oh here's another question robert, so when somebody asks you or somebody asksone of my viewers like and like somebody's talking one of my viewers who's a vegan andsomebody asked him like you're not getting enough protein as a vegan what should theysay to the person? what's the best comeback you can come up with?robert cheeke: so someone comes up and says you're not getting enough protein, is thatright?
john: yeah, yeah, yeah.robert cheeke: tell me, tell me all about protein, what do you know about protein, tellme how much we need, what are the great sources of it, tell me about your protein consumption.i don't know, i would just, i think it's just this thing that people don't know a lot about,they just assume, oh we just must have a lot of it, so please enlighten me, tell me howmuch i should have- 400 grams of milk protein a day, what is this. so i think people willthen realize that it's a little bit of a silly question, maybe i shouldn't be asking everyonethat, because they themselves... john: they themselves don't know the answer.robert cheeke: they themselves don't know and they may not know the health risks involved.so, i mean part of me, part of me wants to
get a little bit defensive and say okay tellme about your cholesterol levels and tell me about what's your...john: look at your phytonutrients from. robert cheeke: yeah, you sort of want to answerback like that, but i mostly say oh please tell me how much you think i should be havingand then the conversation gets started and you can just have a dialogue about it andrealize that maybe the person just doesn't know a whole lot about it and...john: they're just listening to those sport casters on tv.robert cheeke: it could be an opportunity for them to learn something, to try somethingnew. i was in that boat too where for a long time i was telling my followers on veganbodybuilding.comeat a lot of protein, drink these plant based
protein drinks and be as competitive as allthe other bodybuilders out there but as a vegan and make a stand and all this. theni just learned, i just learned more, i just learned from people like dr. campbell andforks over knives and many others that this was not something i needed to focus on andperhaps my advice was probably detrimental and could be harmful and i have to...john: own up to it. robert cheeke: yeah, that's something thati helped spark that movement of the plant based supplement movement, i worked that industryfor 10 years. it was working through that industry that i think led me to realize thatit's unnecessary and a lot of it is sales and marketing at the end of the day.john: right, well i'm glad you're here and
actually sharing this with people becausethis makes you more of an advocate that we actually don't need it because you've gonethrough it all, you changed your ways and you're not into this dogmatic approach thatwe must do it because that's what everybody else does and you're stepping outside thebox and encouraging a whole plant based food diet which is what i recommend also.robert cheeke: one more thought, this just came to me. i've said this to a number ofpeople in conversation recently, so one of the biggest fears out there is to give upthe protein powder, even plant based athletes who really get it, they really realize thatwe don't need a lot of protein, but they still do their insurance one a day, just for insurance,just to have it, just to be safe. one of the
hardest things to do, is just for people itseems to let that go. my question is what do you have to lose? are you on the olympicteam? do you have a 7 figure salary? do you have an entire nation cheering for your successthat you represent? what could happen? what you lose one pound, you lose two pounds, youlose a tiny bit of muscle? that doesn't need to happen, obviously i gained muscle. so buti think that's important, that what do you have to lose?john: people are scared. or there's fear based mentality.robert cheeke: we're not all hardcore professional athletes on tv every day with millions offans and big contracts and lots of pressure and money and all this kind of stuff, we'remost of us just exercise of it, and why do
all this extra protein drinks that are unnecessary,it's extra money, it's extra time, it's preventing ourselves from getting better nutrition elsewhere.there's all these reasons that say just give it up, you know, just give it up. what doyou have to lose? mostly, just to try it for yourself. i tried it in 2012 and i haven'tgone back, so if i can do it after being the like vegan bodybuilding guy for a decade,doing that in all the early days, 6 protein drinks a day, then i think anyone who justdoes the protein drink casually can also give that up.john: alright, so robert last question for you actually, is how much protein does a personneed whether they're just a normal person doing their daily stuff like i know a lotof you guys are, versus somebody like you
that really works out hard and does all thatstuff, like what's the protein need that you would recommend for people out there?robert cheeke: i am a believer in consuming 10 to 15 percent of your calories. so it'sgoing to be different because i burn more calories than a lot of other people.john: yeah. robert cheeke: because of my gender, age,height, weight and very importantly my activity level. so i'm just going to need more calories.therefore i'm going to have more, overall protein. so i'm not saying oh you're reallyactive bump it up to 20 percent of your diet or 25 percent.john: 15 percent should max out. robert cheeke: yeah, yeah because you justeat more calories.
john: so how many calories are you eatingright now? robert cheeke: i eat about 3600 a day.john: so 15 percent would be how many? robert cheeke: it's, i haven't even done themath, i mean, divided by four whatever, but i don't, because i don't care about it. idon't worry about the number of grams. it may turn out to be like 100 grams or so whichseems like a lot but when i'm eating thousands of calories that are mostly fruit and legumesand some grains and leafy greens then protein's going to be a small amount of that.john: yeah, so mainly if you're just eating plant foods, fruits, vegetables, some beans,grains and you're eating your calorie requirements, you're going to get enough protein to do whatyou need to do, right?
robert cheeke: absolutely, absolutely, andall the extra benefits of all the micronutrients, the water, the fiber, all the great thingsfor overall health without the extra baggage of isolated nutrients and just excess caloriesthat often just go to waste. john: awesome, awesome. well thanks robertfor being on the show today. robert cheeke: thank you.john: now, if you guys want to learn more about how to gain muscle and loose fat ona plant based diet robert has an amazing book, so why don't you tell them about your bookand how they can get that real quick. robert cheeke: yeah, my latest book shredit actually came out a year and a half ago, but it's inspired thousands of people, endorsedby dr. campbell, dr. rusellton, forks over
knives, kathy freston and numerous registereddietitians, authors, athletes. i spent two and a half years working on it, it's reallygood and basically that's, it was peer reviewed by 28 or 29 different experts and they'veendorsed the book. so shred it is on veganbodybuilding.com it'salso on a bunch of other stores in australia, new zealand, canada and soon to be amazon,not yet, but soon to be on amazon too. but right now veganbodybuilding.com and i thinkjust a great resource to help people understand how to burn fat and how to build muscle ona whole food plant based diet. john: that's what i encourage you guys toeat, focus on the fruits and the vegetables the most, and that's what i pretty much eatmyself and the more fruits and vegetables
you guys get in the better and fill in withbeans and other high quality plant foods if you need to. so hope you guys enjoyed thisepisode if you did hey please give me a thumbs up, to let me know, also be sure to clickthat subscribe button right down below to be notified of my new and upcoming episodesi have coming out every 5 to 7 days. be sure to share this with someone who thinksyou need protein or thinks you're getting enough protein. be sure to check my past episodes,i have over 450 videos now on this youtube channel dedicated to teaching you guys toeat a plant based fruit and vegetable strong diet to be healthy. so once again my nameis john kohler with okraw.com. we'll see you next time and until then remember keep eatingyour fresh fruits and vegetables, they're
always this best.is seaweed a healthy or harmful superfood?? on a raw food diet.alright! this is john kohler with okraaw.com. today we have another episode for you andwhat we're going to do today on this episode is have another one of my famous compilationvideos where i interview over a dozen of my friends, long term raw foodists, people